tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN October 1, 2011 1:00am-2:00am EDT
like usher music in the car. >> oh, no. you just killed off any chance he has. he plays usher music? it's been great to meet you. you're obviously a very close loving family. whatever does happen i wish you all the best of luck. thank you very much. >> thank you. a new fbi bulletin warning about possible retaliation for the killing of anwar al awlaki. one of america's most terror leaders. we have a name for it. "operation troy." weeks of surveillance, harrier jets and special forces standing by waiting for possible ground operations. also tonight breaking details exclusive to "360" on what this would-be killer was capable of and learning how saudi arabia figured into his take-down. our own fran townsend has details and what her sources are saying about the chemical weapons he wanted to use on america, the country he was born in and the country that educated
him and early this morning the country that hunted him down. around 3:00 a.m. eastern time, the u.s. launches a joint operation with the yemenis, a car believed to be carrying al awlaki is targeted. a u.s. drone fires its missile and one of america's top terror targets is dead. >> the death of awlaki is a major blow to al qaeda's most active operational affiliate. >> anwar al awlaki was a long way from the home when the missile found him in yemen. born in new mexico and educated in the u.s., he radicalized and became a leader in al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. implicated in many plots to kill americans, he was a top terror recruiter, awlaki's presence was felt in the ft. hood massacre. the alleged shooter, major nidal hasan is believed to have exchanged e-mails with awlaki before the rampage that left 13 people dead. awlaki is also linked to other terror plots, including the would-be underwear bomber's alleged plan to bring down a
u.s. airliner two years ago, the plot to blow up u.s. cargo planes, and the attempt to set off a bomb in new york's times square. >> i consider al qaeda in the arabian peninsulas with awlaki as a leader within that organization probably the most significant risk to the u.s. homeland. >> we had always had a tremendous concern that after getting bin ladin that someone like awlaki was a primary target because of his continuing efforts to plan attacks against the united states. >> awlaki justifies such attacks saying americans are at war with islam. >> with the american invasion of iraq and continued u.s. aggression against muslims -- and i eventually came to the conclusion that jihad against america is binding upon myself, just as it is binding on every other able muslim. >> the pentagon is saying little about the drone strike that ended his war.
three others died alongside him including another radical american who was the producer of the jihadi online magazine called "inspire." the notion of killing americans instead of bringing them to justice, not sitting well with some. >> awlaki was born here, he's an american citizen. he was never tried or charged with any crimes. nobody knows if he ever killed anybody. >> the american civil liberties union agrees, saying awlaki's killing violates both u.s. and international law. others say awlaki placed himself outside american justice, but not beyond american air power. we'll talk about the legality of all this a little bit. first, more details of the attacks. we mentioned at the top, national security contributor fran townsend is learning new details about him, and what other countries were involved in this takedown. she joins us along with national security adviser peter bergen. fran, i know you've been working your sources, you have new information tonight. what have you learned? >> well, anderson, it's interesting. we heard a lot. we remember the cargo plot. the saudi government handed us the tracking numbers. we found these computer
cartridges. well, as it turns out, a senior counter terrorism official confirmed to me today, that as part of that plot, anwar al awlaki had advocated the use of wmd, namely ricin or cyanide in pa of the plot, a poison piece to the plot. that didn't happen. but you can understand as anwar al awlaki got more aggressive operationally and became the external operations heave for al qaeda in the arabian peninsula he volunteered himself as a more and more increasingly important target. >> you've also got some new information about who helped the united states track him down, correct? >> that's right. you know, the saudi government has a very strong counterterrorism service, and the united states works pretty closely with them. they did provide us those tracking numbers in the cargo plane case. and i'm told that this saudi group was instrumental in helping provide target information against awlaki. not surprising, the same sources who would have given them the
tracking numbers would clearly have had access to the inner workings of al qaeda in terms of tracking and targeting. >> the president of yemen, didn't he go to saudi arabia after he was injured? several months ago? >> that's right, the interesting thing, an american counterterrorism official said to me, you know, the counterterrorism relationship between yemeni and the united states has gotten increasingly better over the last three months. as you point out, anderson, that's about the time saleh went to saudi arabia, having suffered serious burns in the attack on him. and they went further and said that a yemeni official said to me, you know, we began to provide serious targeting information against al awlaki about a month ago, and clearly this has been an operation that's built the intelligence picture of al awlaki's whereabouts, his confederates over time that enabled today's operation. >> interesting stuff. barbara starr, i know you have new information tonight. what are you hearing? >> anderson, it looks like it was in the last two weeks that
the cia and u.s. military were able to hone in on where he was hiding in yemen. we are told that it was a joint operation now between the cia and the joint special operations command. where have you heard that word before? those were the military troops that went and killed osama bin ladin on that raid into pakistan. jsoc they are called. jsoc and the cia working together using drones and airplanes. jsoc providing we are told the final targeting information to really focus in over the last two weeks on where he was, what his movements were, and getting ready to take that final hit. jsoc troops also were on standby, as a backup force to go in if that was necessary. they did not have to go in, we are told. but this is the latest example of the cia and military troops in the united states working hand in hand on these high target operations around the world, anderson.
>> and, peter, how significant a blow to al qaeda central, but also mainly to al qaeda in the arabian peninsula is this? >> i think al qaeda in the arabian peninsula has been under pressure for some time. you know, there have been u.s. special forces in yemen. several dozen of them who have been basically hunting these guys down. we've seen a number of strikes, drone strikes before this one against al awlaki targeting some of the leadership. i think the group's been under pressure for a while, but taking this guy out, his ability to communicate directly with the ft. hood shooter, and encourage him to kill fellow american solders speaks for itself. so in terms of his ability to mobilize english speaking would-be or wanna-be terrorists in england or canada or britain. i would caveat that with, this guy had no profile in much of the muslim world. he wasn't a commonplace name in the arab world. the fact that the fbi and dhs
sort of said there might be reprisals, that's kind of to be expected, they would release that kind of statement. the fact is, we didn't see a big response after the death of osama bin ladin who is a much, much more important figure. and i doubt we'll see anything really significant from al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. they've got other problems. they're very much on the run right now. >> they're very much on the run? >> yeah. >> jill dougherty, it's interesting though -- i mean, what fran was talking about is the yemeni president had just returned to the country after giving the medical treatment in saudi arabia. he's looking to the u.s. to help him stay in power. how much should we read into the timing of all this? >> i don't think actually that you should real read a lot into it. president salem might want to try to give the impression that he's back and then suddenly they get al awlaki thanks to him. there's no indication at this point that he gave any significant information. i think as fran has been
pointing out, these operations take quite a long time, and the research and looking at where he was took a long time. so to say that suddenly it all came together just because saleh is back, i don't think it holds water. >> fran, you actually had met with saleh back when you were in government, tried to convince him to go after al awlaki. what was that like? >> well, look, you know, saleh, he had a very sort of tenuous confederation that supported him of these tribes, and he was reluctant to go at risk with any of them. awlaki had strong tribal support. he was teaching at suenai university, he was teaching this english class. the guy that was with him who was killed went to yemen to take these english classes. we knew they were really radicalization courses. they were recruitment and training. and we told saleh that and wanted him to go after al awlaki but he never did. he was reluctant i think because
of al awlaki's strong tribal ties. >> there was also an attempt on his life with the drone track earlier this summer that failed. the u.s. reportedly has i think at least three drone bases in the region. how important have these bases been? >> they've been incredibly important. and we've seen increasing use of them, you know, of course, in the federally administrated tribal areas of pakistan. now, this more widespread use and i think, you know, frankly, our allies prefer the use of drones than they do to having u.s. troops on the ground. >> do we know how this guy got radicalized? i mean was he -- he was born in the united states. do we know what occurred? >> well, you know, i've talked to the imam of the mosque where awlaki lived in virginia in 2002. and at that time he didn't really have much of a -- he wasn't really described as a militant. what may have turned him much more radical was a spell of -- he spent a year in a prison in 2006. we've seen repeatedly whether it
was al zawahiri or the leader of al qaeda in iraq, the people in prison seem to become more radicalized. to key to this guy's radicalization might have been this year he spent in a yemeni prison, anderson. >> interesting, much like the jihadists who came out of egypt being radicalized in egyptian prisons. peter, appreciate it, jill dougherty, barbara starr, thanks for the reporting. let us know what you think. follow us on twitter, @andersoncooper. more on the legal angle. is killing an american terrorist overseas justifiable? or is it, as some are saying, illegal? extra judicial murder? does it fall on some new gray area? we'll talk about the legal angle on all of this. we'll talk about that on twitter. a lot of people weighing in. most people saying, yes, it's okay to kill him, some people representative ron paul, for instance, saying no, it wasn't. later "crime and punishment," more damaging testimony against dr. conrad murray in the michael
jackson death trial. his time line of michael jackson's last moments, and what paramedics say he did not tell them about their patient when they arrived on the scene and let's check in on isha. coming up, we just got access of never before seen video of casey anthony. images the judge in her murder trial would not let the jury see. we'll tell you why and why we're seeing it now. that and much more when "360" continues. helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. we are now printing on the back sides of used paper. and we switched to fedex 'cause a lot of their packaging contains recycled materials. tell them what else fedex does. well we're now using more electric trucks and lower emission planes. we even offer a reusable envelope. now, can't we at least print on the back sides of used paper? what's the executive compensation list...?
[ male announcer ] sustainable solutions. fedex. solutions that matter. whether it can be done safely and responsibly. at exxonmobil we know the answer is yes. when we design any well, the groundwater's protected by multiple layers of steel and cement. most wells are over a mile and a half deep so there's a tremendous amount of protective rock between the fracking operation and the groundwater. natural gas is critical to our future.
at exxonmobil we recognize the challenges and how important it is to do this right. i got it, i'm sorry. these people, huh? you know i've found that anger is the enemy of instruction. you don't know the egos that i have to deal with. you're probably right. thank you! whoever you are. i'm pretty sure that was phil jackson. he's quite famous... million championships... triangle offense innovator... [ male announcer ] the audi a8. named best large luxury sedan. nice wheels zen master. thank you...todd. ♪ mary? what are you doing here? it's megan. i'm getting new insurance. marjorie, you've had a policy with us for three years. it's been five years. five years. well, progressive gives megan discounts that you guys didn't. paperless, safe driver, and i get great service. meredith, what's shakin', bacon?
they'll figure it out. getting you the discounts you deserve. now, that's progressive. call or click today. breaking news tonight, an fbi bulletin warning of retaliation for the killing of two al qaeda terrorists. two men dedicated to waging holy war against america. two americans. so should that have made a difference in how to go after them, the fact that they were americans? cnn's newest anchor erin burnett asked leon panetta about it today. >> and i'm curious. there's been discussion of the aclu that he was an american citizen and the fact that it was perhaps a cia drone which killed him is possibly illegal because he didn't have a trial and he's an american citizen? are you confident that you're clear legally here? >> this individual was clearly a terrorist. and, yes, he was a citizen, but if you're a terrorist, you're a terrorist.
and that means that we have the ability to go after those who would threaten to attack the united states and kill americans. there's no question that the authority and the ability to go after a terrorist is there. >> that's one view. earlier you heard ron paul stating the other side. when it became clear his son was being targeted, al awlaki's father actually tried to take the government to court. the judge threw out the case. let's take it up with jeffrey toobin. jeffrey, there's a law on the books that i think has been in effect since the 1970s. banning the u.s. government from assassinating individuals. how does the u.s. government legally justify killing a u.s. citizen now? >> because we're at war. i mean, it's as simple as that. right after 9/11 congress authorized the use of military force against al qaeda. that law is still in effect, it was the authorization for the war in iraq, for the war in afghanistan and as an active member of al qaeda, this guy is fair game under our laws.
>> so if he was a member of another terrorist group, not al qaeda, would it still be legal? >> well, not under this use of force authorization. i mean, there are various findings. the president can issue what's called an intelligence finding relating to other people. this post-9/11 authorization only applies to al qaeda. but just to answer your broader question, i mean, this ban on assassinations is really pretty much irrelevant at this point. so many presidents since the '70s have directed -- whether it's ronald reagan trying to kill gadhafi or the post-9/11 al qaeda/osama bin laden. that law is technically still on the books, but presidents have long since figured out ways around it. >> president obama issued a presidential order two years ago to capture or kill awlaki
basically putting him on the hit list. a president can do that now? issue an order for anyone he deems a threat to the united states or anyone -- they have to be actively engaged in war? >> well, see, that's where you start to get into gray area, and that's where the fact that there is not and probably never will be a legal test of this authority becomes relevant. i mean, i don't know where the outside limit of this is. the fact that this was an al qaeda member in yemen seems like they're on very firm ground. suppose he was in toronto, suppose he was in baltimore. i don't think we could use a missile in toronto. but i think legally we would be covered under this authority. it seems to be very, very broad. >> isn't this, though, also a -- i mean it's a war on terror if that's the term that can go on endlessly, so i mean is there no time limit on this war? >> there certainly is no time limit in the legislation, and
that's one of the concerns that's been raised. i mean, after all, 9/11 was more than 10 years ago, and we're still fighting al qaeda, the war in afghanistan is still going, the war in iraq is not over either. there is no limit on the law. whether at some point congress will decide to formally end the war or a court will step in, i don't know. >> i don't want to go down the road of hypotheticals too far, but would it be okay for the u.s. government to, you know -- that somebody is believed to be an al qaeda sympathizer, believed to be wanting to do harm to people in the united states, has made e-mail communication with al qaeda, would it be okay to kill that person in the united states? >> well, that's what we don't know and the contrast is, of course, so dramatic. you know, what we require to execute someone in the united states is a very elaborate system of due process. here, the president signs a piece of paper, and it's a death sentence. and it's unreviewable by the courts.
that does appear to be what the law is now. so far, the number of people targeted and the kind of people targeted have not generated any considerable protests. and i certainly don't think there are going to be any protests about this killing. but, i mean, as you point out, you know, the extrapolation, the other possibilities are really chilling. >> yeah, i mean, it was interesting that awlaki's father tried to stop this from happening in the court. the family doesn't have any kind of legal recourse at this point. they're not suing the u.s. government, are they? >> i don't think so. i mean i suppose in theory his estate could sue. but there are so many barriers to that that i think it's just a law school hypothetical. it's never going to happen. you know, it's so ironic. if they wanted to tap his phone in yemen, they would have to get a warrant from the surveillance court. but if they want to kill him, they don't need any warrant at all. the president just signs the paper. >> interesting. we're having a discussion on twitter right now @andersoncooper.
join in. jeff, thank you very much. i want to go to a man who's been on the front lines in many ways, a former top fbi special agent. he investigated the east african bombings as well as the deadly attack on the "uss cole." he is co-author of "the black banners" an inside story of 9/11 and the war on al qaeda. you were involved in interrogating terrorists. how important was awlaki within al qaeda in the arabian peninsula? >> within al qaeda and the arabian peninsula, he became an inspirational figure. he became spiritual guidance, however his focus and force come to the recruitment of terrorists in the west, especially in the united states and united kingdom. we see that again and again, with most of the operations that took place in the west and the united states. since 2009, for example, anderson, most of the attacks, if not all of the attacks.
that took place in the united states, were not planned and organized in pakistan, that was shifted to the arabian peninsula of al qaeda, shifted to yemen because of al awlaki. he's an excellent english speaker, very knowledgeable about the culture, he used the new media, and the internet. he single-handedly created the threat that we have today, the home grown terrorism. people who never joined al qaeda, never went to the training camps in afghanistan. however, they were able to read "inspire" magazine that was published by samir kahn, who was also killed. and listen to his sermon and look at the videos produced over the internet and join the organization. >> it's amazing that this guy and this other one, both who were killed today were sort of at the epicenter of a lot of the recent attempts in the united states. >> yeah, absolutely, and his
influence goes way beyond the arabian peninsula. i mean, the underwear bomber abdulmutallab is a perfect example. abdulmutallab attends a mosque where al awlaki is imam. he becomes so impressed by awlaki that he goes to yemen. he gets recruited by awlaki in yemen to blow up an airplane over detroit during christmas '09. that gives you an idea of the global influence that awlaki did. if we didn't kill him today, in five, ten years from now, it could have been the next bin ladin. >> it's interesting, though, i've seen some of this stuff on the internet, i don't see him as being this huge, great charismatic figure. what was it, do you think? >> it was his ability to communicate al qaeda's rhetoric, bin laden's rhetoric in english. in a way that people in london and people in the united states, a kid who's watching al qaeda propaganda videos in the basement of his mother can
understand and relate to. >> was it legal to kill him, do you think? >> i believe so. this individual declared war on the united states many times, he was involved in every terrorist plot since 2009 until today. and that took place on the homeland. i mean major hassan, for example, nidal hasan, the times square bomber, the cargo plot. and you name it, all these plots have been linked to him. >> you actually interrogated or were involved with getting, bringing to justice a lot of the al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, leaders who were actually then sent to prison in yemen and escaped. >> we actually assisted the yemeni government in the prosecution of all these individuals, and we arrested many of them after a series of operations that we did in yemen with the military, and they were planning to do a few attacks, targets. >> they're still out there. they've escaped.
>> we prosecuted all of them, we put them in jail and they were able to dig a tunnel and escape, all of them, including the leader until today. the leaders of al qaeda and the arabian peninsula. >> so is al qaeda in the arabian peninsula going to be the driving force behind the attacks to come or the attempted attacks to come? >> regionally i don't think the death of al awlaki will affect al qaeda and the arabian peninsula. i think awlaki's death is more important for us in the united state and in the west because if you look at al qaeda as a franchise, he was the person that was handling the operations in the west and in the united states. >> interesting. >> so from that perspective, he is extremely important to us, but when it comes to the middle east, when it comes to yemen, he's pretty irrelevant, and i think everyone in yemen and in the region will look into the assassination today within the context of what's happening today in yemen between saleh and the opposition. >> peter bergen earlier said they're on the run, basically, they have bigger problems given
all that's going on in yemen? >> absolutely. i think both of them, the regional group is on the run, because they have quite the battles going on in afghan and many areas down south. but also awlaki's group has been on the run recently. for example, they were supposed to do an "inspire" magazine edition for the 9/11 anniversary. that was late more than 16 days. that gives you an idea about the way samir khan and the way al awlaki has been living recently. >> thank you very much for being on. >> thank you for having me. another fascinating day of testimony in the michael jackson manslaughter trial. the paramedic who responded to the 911 call said it was too late by the time he arrived. randi kaye was inside the courtroom and has details. the latest in the amanda knox murder appeal. she could be days away from freedom. we'll be right back. ♪
[ male announcer ] every day, thousands of people are choosing advil®. advil® helps me do what i love. the job's tough, advil® is tougher. advil® never lets me down. [ male announcer ] take action. take advil®. [ male announcer ] we're not employers or employees. not white collar or blue collar or no collars. we are business in america. and every day we awake to the same challenges.
still ahead tonight, a paramedic delivering damning testimony in day four of the michael jackson death trial. why he said conrad murray's story just did not ad up. first, isha has a business bulletin. anderson, an attorney for amanda knox today blasts prosecutors saying they decided his client was guilty regardless of logic and reason. knox and her former boyfriend raffaello sollecito are appealing their convictions for the 2007 of meredith kircher. they're expected to give final statements to the court monday. 15 people are now dead from eating cantaloupe contaminated
with listeria. an additional 84 illnesses have been reported in 19 states making this the deadliest foodborne outbreak since 1988. on wall street, stocks finished one of their worst quarters since the 2008 financial crisis. in the past three months, the dow dropped 12%, the s&p tumbled 14% and the nasdaq lost 13%. the first lady slips out to run an errand. a casually dressed michelle obama was spotted yesterday pushing her own cart at target. amazingly, the store manager tells cnn almost no one recognized her, which could be why the white house says trips like these are not uncommon. >> strange to me that you guys say cart, makes me think you should have a horse attached to it. >> what do you say? >> a shopping trolley. >> really? seems like a lot of work. shopping trolley. cart. >> trolley. >> shopping trolley.
yeah. >> let's call the whole thing off. >> we'll call it a shopping wagon. time now for -- a video found on youtube. a guy's kitchen got trashed while he was away at work. he launched a little investigation. sure enough it became pretty clear who the suspect was. take a look. >> this is what i come home to, trash has been gone through, it's my fault, i left it kind of full. so my question is, who did it? who's the culprit. we got vena. what about tank? i wonder if tank had anything to do with it. tank, do you know about the trash? >> ah. do you know anything about the trash? >> don't look at me. >> poor tank. he's not very smart. tank is an english mastiff. so there you go. that's funny. much more serious stuff ahead including crime and punishment, day four of the michael jackson death trial.
a paramedic shoots holes in conrad's story about how and when michael jackson died. another prosecution witness may have backfired, we'll tell you why. also, video. the day that caylee's body was found. the trial judge said it was too inflammatory for jurors to see, tonight you're going to see it for the first time. you'll decide for yourself. sun life financialrating should be famous.d bad, we're working on it. so you're seriously proposing we change our name to sun life valley. do we still get to go skiing? sooner or later, you'll know our name. sun life financial.
even though i'm a great driver and he's... not so much. well, for a driver like you, i would recommend our new snapshot discount. this little baby keeps track of your great driving habits, so you can save money. amazing! it's like an extra bonus savings. hah-hah! he's my ride home. how much can a snapshot discount save you? call or click today. "crime and punishment" tonight, michael jackson had flat-lined by the time rescuers arrived. that was the testimony today from a paramedic who took the stand in day four of the michael jackson death trial. the first responder testified he never saw any signs of life in jackson and that the details of jackson's personal doctor conrad murray gave him about medications he had taken and when he stopped breathing, they
just didn't add up according to the paramedic. conrad murray is now on trial for manslaughter, faces up to four years in prison if convicted. here's randi kaye with the latest from the court. >> reporter: the paramedic arrived at mmg's -- michael jackson's home hoping to save a life. he needed to know how long jackson hadn't been breathing, what, if anything, he had taken. >> did you ask dr. murray how long the patient had been in this condition? how long the patient had been down? >> i did ask him that. >> what did dr. murray say in response to that question? >> it just happened right when i called you. >> in and in your mind, what did that mean? >> it meant to me that this was a patient we had a really good chance of saving. >> reporter: true, if paramedics had the real story. instead, jackson's personal physician, dr. conrad murray, told half-truths. >> what observations specifically did you make that led you to feel as if there was inconsistent information that
you had received. >> when i first moved the patient, his skin was very cool to the touch. when i took a first glance at him, his eyes were open. they were dry and his pupils were dilated. when i hooked up the ekg machine, it was flat-lined. >> no heartbeat and skin cool to the touch told paramedics more than just the five minutes it took them to arrive had passed. he says murray was frantic. >> i asked what his underlying health condition was, he did not respond. i asked again what his underlying health condition was, he did not respond. and then he -- i think it was the third time, he said nothing, nothing. he has nothing, and simply that did not add up to me. >> reporter: here's something else that didn't add up. he says jackson appeared thin, underweight. he also noticed an iv stand in the bedroom, an oxygen tank and
medications on the nightstand. he asked murray what drugs jackson had taken. >> at that point he said, no, he's not taking anything. and then he followed that up with i just gave him a little bit of lorazepam to sleep. >> did you follow up with anything else, dr. murray? are you giving him or did you give him anything else? >> i asked, was there anything else? is there anything else? and, no, that's it, just a little bit of lorazepam. >> reporter: paramedics would learn later that wasn't true. dr. murray had also given him propofol, which the coroner says caused his death. >> did dr. murray ever mention to you having administered propofol to michael jackson? >> no, he did not. >> did conrad murray ever mention the word propofol to you during the time that you were at the location or in his presence? >> no, he did not. troip defense tried to ask if
that would have made a difference. >> isn't it true that you would have done absolutely nothing different because you could not had dr. murray even mentioned the propofol? >> objection, lack of foundation, calls for speculation. >> sustained. >> reporter: he says he saw no change in jackson's condition from the seem he got to the even. at 12:57, more than 30 minutes after they arrived, emergency responders wanted to declare michael jackson dead. >> if there's nothing further, we're going to call it here. time of death is 12:57. >> but senneff says murray insisted jackson be transported to the hospital and not declared dead. after loading him into the ambulance, senneff says he went back inside to find murray in the bedroom. >> describe what you see dr. murray doing when you return to the bedroom. >> he has a bag in hand and is picking up items from the floor. >> where is he located when you see him with the bag in his hand picking up items from the floor? >> near the nightstand?
>> on the far side of the bed? >> on the far side of the bed. >> reporter: the defense warned against jumping to conclusions. >> did you see what dr. murray was, in fact, picking up? >> i did not. >> okay. isn't it true he was picking up his wallet and his glasses? >> i don't know, sir, the bed was blocking right where his hands were. >> reporter: jackson was transported to the hospital with dr. conrad murray in the plans at his side. he was pronounced dead upon arrival. >> randi, a former patient of dr. murray's also testified today. what did he say? >> anderson, his name is robert russell, and he was called by the prosecution, but really in the end, he may have helped the defense actually because he may have helped the defense more, because he testified that dr. murray's treatment and advice actually saved his life. he said that murray put stints in his heart and helped him change his bad habits, and this really framed dr. murray as a caring and more importantly competent doctor.
a competent cardiologist, but the patient did tell the court that he felt "abandoned" when dr. murray closed his practice to go work for michael jackson. and that is really what the prosecution wanted to get at. the guy, anderson, went on to say how his new doctor was how he will his stints from dr. murray had held up. so it really seemed to help dr. murray more than anything and murray knew it, in fact, because when the guy left the courtroom an walked right past dr. murray, dr. murray put his hand over his heart and gave him a slight bow. >> interesting. let's dig deeper with dr. sanjay gupta and criminal defense attorney mark geragos both in los angeles this evening. in the testimony that we heard from the paramedic. he said he got to the house within five minutes of getting the call. when he arrived, dr. murray proceeded to tell him jackson went down just before he made the 911 call. he said when he touched him he was cold. his pupils dilated. how long would a body have to be
dead in order to be in that state? >> well, it's sort of interesting the language they used, anderson, first to go from quote/unquote being down to actually dying. somebody who goes down from a cardiac arrest to actually dying, that can be several minutes, and then at the time that someone dies, several things happen, a lot of the muscles relax immediately in the body and that's why the pupils dilate. that can happen pretty quickly. as far as the body feeling cool to the touch, that's depending on lots of different things, including the temperature in the bedroom, the overall status of the body before the patient has died. so that's a little bit harder to pinpoint, but it would be at least several minutes for the body to start to cool down, but, again, the pupils dilating pretty quickly after that all happens. >> the time line that the paramedic laid out of events didn't match up with the events we heard from jackson's attorney yesterday. he said when he arrived at the house, he saw murray and the
security guard removing jackson from the bed. yesterday the security guard said that was happening while he was making the 911 call. how important do you think that is to the defense? >> i think it is important, we talked about it yesterday, anderson. if you took a look at the cross-examination that happened yesterday, it didn't seem significant until you then heard the testimony today. they were laying it out, it's one of the reasons i always say, we shouldn't jump into this kind of espn analysis of who's ahead until you see how it unfolds. because the defense knew what they were doing. they knew it wasn't going to play. they knew what the witnesses were coming up, especially the paramedic today, because he's testified before. so they were laying the groundwork for, hey, this stuff from the bodyguard just doesn't fit with what the other witnesses say. >> well, sanjay, the paramedic also testified that when he arrived at the scene, dr. murray made no mention of giving jackson propofol. the defense tried to ask the paramedic if he had done anything different if he had known that. the prosecution objected and we never heard the answer.
how important was it for the paramedic to know what michael jackson had been given? i mean, would he have done anything different had he known propofol was involved? >> well, those are two separate questions. i don't know that he would have done anything differently, anderson, because by all descriptions, the dilated pupils again, the body being cool to the touch, it sounded like michael jackson was already dead. so i don't know that he would have done anything differently but the idea that you share everything in this situation, information in a case like this, the patient's private doctor, it seemed odd that he talked about lorezepam being given, but he didn't mention this unusual medication, unusual in that it was being given outside a hospital. that's not something you forget, anderson.
>> mark, overall what do you think of the job the prosecution has been doing? >> i think it's very workman like. in fact, i'm impressed by how quickly they're going. normally in cases like this for whatever reason prosecutors tend to dilly-dally around. the prosecution is doing a workmanlike job. i think the defense is too. i've been very surprised by both sides, they get in, they get out, nobody's going into a four corners stall, it's been, i think, so far, a well tried case on both sides. >> from the defense, i mean, what is -- what do you think this is going to boil down to for them? >> oh, it's clearly from my standpoint at least it's clearly going to come down to dr. white's testimony and, to a lesser degree, the prosecution's testimony as to whether or not the levels of propofol were what caused his death. remember, this whole case comes down to, you can say dr. murray acted strange, you can say he acted odd. you can say all of those things, unless the prosecution can convince this jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the medicine or the pharmaceuticals that dr. murray gave him caused the death, then it's a not guilty. so that's where the prosecution is going to kind of rise or fall.
>> and sanjay, from a medical standpoint, how difficult is it going to be to prove -- to show what actually killed him? >> well, you know, if you have a level of propofol in the body that's essentially consistent with being under general anesthesia, which is at least what some of these coroner reports have shown. keep in mind, this is unusual because you don't often measure propofol levels in the hospital, because it's gone from the body so quickly. if they show there were circulating levels of propofol similar to anesthesia a few hours later after it was administered, that means he had a lot of propofol in his body. that will be pretty compelling. you don't give that much propofol without someone having a breathing tube in, without having monitoring equipment, without having resuscitation equipment. all the things we've been talking about anderson, anderson. >> thank you, appreciate it. up next, the video of casey anthony that a florida judge did not want the jurors to see from the day her daughter's body was found.
we're going to see it tonight. and a "360" follow on the suicide of jamey rodemeyer, bullied at school and even after his death the school district taking action. details ahead. lth probiotic cap a day helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. [ guy ] ring, ring. hold on a sec... progresso... i love your new loaded potato with bacon. that's what we like to hear. where was i? oh right... our rich & hearty soups.. people love the thick cut carrots... we do too! where was i? progresso. right, our new rich & heart soups... [ ring, ring ] progresso... switch our phone service? [ ring, ring ] [ ring, ring ] ...no, i think we're pretty happy with our phones. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. [ tires screech ]
[ crying ] [ applause ] [ laughs ] [ tires screech ] [ male announcer ] your life will have to flash by even faster. autodrive brakes on the cadillac srx activate after rain is detected to help improve braking performance. we don't just make luxury cars. we make cadillacs. and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. ♪ got so many scratches and scars ♪
i tell you what i can spend. i do my best to make it work. i'm back on the road safely. and i saved you money on brakes. that's personal pricing. anderson, the "ridicu-list" coming up first. for the first time we're seeing video of casey anthony on the day her daughter's remains were found. that's casey rocking and hunched over in the waiting area of a medical facility at a county jail. the trial judge released it
today and said it was too inflammatory for jurors to see. a white mississippi teenager accused of murdering an african-american man in a hate crime pleaded not guilty. prosecutors say daryl deadman was part of a gang of teens who attacked james craig anderson back in june even running him over with a pickup truck. the incident was recorded on surveillance video. a "360" follow on the suicide of jamey rodemeyer, a 14-year-old from the buffalo, new york, area. school administrator say they've identified the student they believe is responsible for the taunting of his sister and friends that he endured. that student has been suspended. now the connection, stories about technology that is making lives better. you're looking at oscar pistorius, the blade runner. those are very high-tech carbon fiber prosthetic limbs, and he will be competing in the
olympics. tonight's american league game between the texas rangers and tampa bay rays. cooper stone, 6-year-old son of the firefighter who fell and died trying to catch a ball back in july, got a standing ovation for his throw to home plate. nice job, cooper. and cooper, back to you. coming up, the "ridicu-list." the case of excessive sneezing and excessive bless youing. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪
♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ saving time, cutting stress, when you use ups ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ yeah, i toog nyguil bud i'm stild stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't un-stuff your nose. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels fights your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your stuffy nose. [ deep breath ] thank you! that's the cold truth! at aviva, we wonder why other life insurance companies treat you like a policy, not a person. instead of getting to know you they simply assign you a number. aviva is here to change all that.
time now for the "ridicu-list." and tonight we're adding anyone who sneezes in this guy's classroom. it's mr. kukevich, a health teacher in california. he does not like disruptions to the point that he reportedly took points off students' grades because they said bless you when somebody sneezed in class. before anyone gets worked up, is this has nothing to do with religion. it's a matter of discipline. take it away, mr. k. >> it's not got anything to do with religion. it's got to do with interruption of class time. >> you may be wondering how much can a sneeze interrupt class time. look, we're not talking about a little achoo followed by a simple bless you. in his classroom one sneeze can lead to utter pandemonium. rowena gets to the bottom of it. >> reporter: he said a student sneezes in class and one says
bless you followed by several students who say bless you. the person who sneezes has to thank everyone individually. >> so wait a minute. the original sneezer nangs each student individually. this is simultaneously the most disruptive and most polite classroom in america an sounds like they're playing a prank. has anyone checked their backpacks for snuff. they love to snuff. it isn't the disruption that bothers him but the relevance of the bless you to begin with. >> the blessing doesn't really make any sense anymore when you sneeze in the old days they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body so they were saying god bless you for getting rid of the evil spirits. but today i say really what you're doing doesn't make any sense anymore. >> he has a point. nowacase we all know that a sneeze isn't dispelling evil spirits. it's actually doing whatever a sneeze does. whatever, ask mr. kukevichi oochl not the health teacher. i do know it's passe.
>> if you want to make a person feel better you shouldn't say god bless, you should say you're so good looking. >> how much do you want to bet the students will now start saying that. i'm sorry, mr. k. why go after the students who say bless you. let's get to the real problems the sneezers themselves and get these kids some claritin stat. the principal says it does not condone docking grades because they say bless and mr. k says he won't do that anymore. look, i'm all for discipline in a classroom. this is how it starts with the sneezing and bless you'ing and if you don't draw the line, the next thing they'll cough and blow their nose and hand each other cough drops. students say mr. k is a great teacher and it all got blown out of proportion so you just keep fighting the good fight, mr. k. keep fighting the gesundheit. "murder abroad" the amanda knox story is next.